start smelling fishy. Why are there orthodox convertions on grounds of allowing a jew to marry a non jew permitted is a mistery to me.

It is a sad day in Israel when individuals speak disrespectfully of a great man and scholar such as Rabbi Druckman. Let us hope that tomorrow brings cooler heads and an apology.

The conversion was not annulled, it was declared NEVER DONE! Mr. Druckman can try to spin things around, however the FACTS are that the Beth Din of Ashdod declared that the conversion NEVER HAPPENED since the candidate HAD NEVER REALLY INTENDED TO OBSERVE ALL THE MITSWOTH OF THE TORAH AS JEWISH LAW DICTATES IN ORDER TO CERTIFY A CONVERSION.

I know that there are many good and wonderful Rabbis and Jews within all of the Orthodox world, despite many valid criticisms directed at some of the leading Rabbis, who are embroiled in controversy This call by Rabbi Druckman has restored some of my lost confidence in these leaders. It is good to see that some one can care enough to come forward in an effort to correct some of these injustices.

SHE IS NOT JEWISH .. AND IMMEDIATY THE FIRST SIN MADE HER NEVER JEWISH.. OBVIOUSLY THE CONVERSION WAS FLAWED THE RABBIS WERE FLAWED IN DETERMINING HER ADHERENCE AND BELIEF IN TORAH.... AGAIN.. I ASK YOU.. HOW CAN YOU BELEIVE IN TORAH THEN FOLLOW YOUR ''''OLD WAYS''' THE NEXT MINUTE... SHE WASNT JEWISH HER CHILDREN ARENT JEWISH... AND ACCORDING TO THESE STORIES THEN THE RABBI SHOULD ANSWER BEFORE THE RABBINICAL COURTS.. THANK YOU DACON9

this is great news. Lets keep humanity in the conversion courts, please. And Gabriella I really enjoy reading your tb's, but respectfully disagree with your conversion-for-marriage opinion. Better to accept a convert into a Jewish home to raise Jewish children than the other way around. Most of the time that's what is at stake.

If a male convert does not don tefillin three times per day, are they no longer a Jew? If a convert tries to keep Sabbath but she turns on a light on Sabbath day, is she no longer a Jew? Rabbi Atiya says the convert did keep any --- not one --- mitzvot. Is this true? If a Jew or a rabbi believes Israel has no right to exist prior to moshiach and refuses to serve in the military, are they no longer a Jew? Should we excommunicate such a Jew who does not recognize Israel?

Druckman's activities have been widely condemned by Gedolei Yisroel of all streams, including the Chief Rabbinate. It most definitely is very clear halacha that there are three (for men) or two (for women) requirements of converts: 1) teviloh in a mikveh; 2) bris miloh (for men); 3) kabbolos ol hamitzvos. If one of these three is missing, the conversion is invalid, even 50 years after. The third criterium is dependent on the convert's intention when he converted. Thus, if somebody converts with the intention to be shomer mitzvos, and some time after his conversion - then if it is clear that when he went into the mikveh he did intend to be shomer mitzvos, then his conversion is *still* valid, even if he converts to another religion (ch'v). However, if someone did not intend to be shomer mitzvos at the time of the conversion, then even if that person later decides to become shomer mitzvos, he is still a non-Jew, because his conversion was and still is completely invalid. The validity of a conversion thus completely depends on the convert: if he is real, good. If he is lying, not good. As the article says, "the woman admitted to Rabbi Atiya that she never observed the mitzvot." Thus, HaRav Atiya only did his job. Don't criticize him - criticize Hashem if you disagree with these halochos. Oh, just as a comparison: if I want to become a US citizen, and at the citizenship granting ceremony I declare that I deny the validity of the constitution of the US and do not intend to obey American law, then will the US still be eager grant me citizenship?

There is already a blueprint for following people around, quesioning them and hearing witnesses and having judges decide if a person is keeping within the precepts of the faith: It was called The Spanish Inquisition.

Now write to The Chief Rabbinate : - ) Tell Racheal and Boaz theie two children to seek appointment to see his righteousness the CR : - ) ben singapore

I think that most of the posters here are nothingnl;ess than MASHUGGA. I used to think that the small numbers of jews in the world was because of persecution and pogroms, but NOW I can clearly see that it's because we have a definitely LUNATIC segment, who are very vocal, and unfortunately, THEY are the ones most heard, and they drive AWAY not only those who WANT to be Jews, but many whao are ALREADY Jews................They are as LOONY in their own way, as the If one of these cretins camr to tell ME that I'M not Jewish, he'd go home without his front teeth, for sure.

You wrote: "As the article says, "the woman admitted to Rabbi Atiya that she never observed the mitzvot." Thus, HaRav Atiya only did his job. Don't criticize him - criticize Hashem if you disagree with these halochos." Rabbi Druckman questions the honesty of HaRav Atiya. I don't know. Could HaRav Atiya be dishonest? Atiya sys the woman never observed even one mitzva. Could this be true? Not one? You wrote: "It most definitely is very clear halacha that there are three (for men) or two (for women) requirements of converts: 1) teviloh in a mikveh; 2) bris miloh (for men); 3) kabbolos ol hamitzvos." Can you please explane this to those of us who are not as learned and as observant and as holy / pious a Jew as you are; in plain english? Thanks.

....Then maybe you can preach to others; you Jewish hypocrite. Get right with G-d sergio!

This is all very puzzling to me. It sounds like you can be the worst human being under the sun, but if you were a Jew by accident of birth, everything is all right. On the other hand, you can't be a Jew by conversion, unless you promise to be and then live like a saint of some sort or have your status as Jew jerked right out from under you. There's something I don't understand or something isn't making sense. Somebody enlighten me, please.

#4- You need to do a bit more research into the word "annulment." Traditionally, annulment refers to exactly what we're talking about about- something that was "never done." In the Roman (later Catholic) Church, annulments were permitted in many circumstances but divorces were not- the difference being that divorces were an end to the marriage versus saying that the marriage was never valid. The same practice is often used in Jewish marriages, as well. The proper English term is, in fact, annulment.

Move to grant audiance to listen and rectify the mistake done to this case and all other casesreported- please grant audience to Rivkah Lubitch : -) Time to Rectify and Repair the Damage Done to these Righteous Converts. You dont penalise their children . I move your JEWISH HEART & SOUL .; - ) ben : - ) singapore

Do'nt write in your galut Yiddish . Hebrew transliteration please , you are in Israel !!!

A modest proposal for the Rabbis. People who convert and then don't keep the mitzvot, should be burned at the stake. A sort of useful lesson to be learned from a "reversed Spanish Inquisition".

don't these rabbis accept that there is for everyone a sliding scale...or a ladder ..which ever metaphore you want to use.. and what's important is what direction you are travelling? i don't think that becoming converted to judaism can be easy for anyone...and if people can't do all of the mitzvot at once...well.. it takes time... and who knows what was in this woman's heart when she underwent the conversion...only her and hashem. of course if the conversion was really fraudulent...eg merely to take money off the government...then tha's another story... if the gedolim are making the standard for being jewish ..being able to live in bnei brak...then very few of us.. including most born jews including ffb's (frum from birth) and those of us who are ba'al teshuvah wouldn't qualify either...:) this whole mare's nest really sounds like a beef between these two rabbis... i am sure that people can really want to be jewish ...and part of the jewish people and really feel jewish after the conversion.. and yet like most jews in the world are unable to keep all the mizvot all the time...or even some of the mizvot some of the time.. it makes me despair of us ever being a real klal... i don't think conversion should be you pay your money and jump into the mikva and bingo....but i don't think it has to be so hard for people who genuinely want to convert that it is impossible for them to do it either and then having to worry that someone is going to say at a later date...oh well you didn't do x..so therefor you aren't jewish now...or weren't ever jewish..

A Convert can be accepted as part of the Jewish People,have the same status and everything ,but he/she is a Convert. He or she were not part of our history up to the moment of the Conversion. He or she do not belong to one of the 12 tribes. He or she were not there in the Sinai. He or she didn't agree with the Covenant when it was done. They are aplying to be part of our people because they desire to be near us and grow with us and be blessed with us ,and eventually they are accepted. Not everybody deserves this blessing and enourmous responsability,many times a heavy one. That's why Convertions should be accomplished in much more responsable ways they actually are. It has consequences! That's why ortodoxy should be strictly obeyed in this matter.

Who has to say it ? the head of the Rabbinical Court or this Rabbi ? The big problem with the Jewish religion is that there is no "supreme" authority on earth . One whom decisions and rules are accepted by everyone . There is the Halacha , but there are many interpretations . Some say a convert has to fulfill all the Mitswoth , others say only some , others say for a long time and the last ones say a very short time is enough . So would it not be better for everyone that they , the great Rabbanim , sit together , discuss this , and finally decide how the Halacha should be implemented , and this , at least , by all the Orthodox authorities .

You are right. I sometimes wonder how is it possible that no one says anything about this instead of picking on the converts. I have seen too many examples of this in Israel. There are people who are Jewish by birth by they do not behave like they should at all. I am not talking about being a haredi, I am talking about basic good human qualities - as compassion, help someone in need, humility, belief in G-d... I think this is what is called Am Rav....

In English, the three requirements: 1) Proper immersion in a ritual bath witnessed by rabbis; 2) circumcision (for men); 3) acceptance of the commandments (ie, of Jewish law). It's the third requirement that the whole thing is about. This woman told Rabbi Atiya that she never observed (and never intended to observe) Jewish law. Thus, requirement no. 3 was not fulfilled. That means that the woman was never converted. She has always been a non-Jew; thus her marriage to a Jew was non-existant, since Jewish law does not recognize such a marriage. And #19, Charles: in contrast to you, for me heritage does count. I freely admit that it might be very nice if we would all use exactly the same type of Hebrew.

His grandmother "was not there in the Sinai", so following your logic, he wasn't there either! But seriously, read halacha. Maimonides (Forbidden Relations 12,13) says about converts הרי הן כישראל לכל דבר = They are like Israel in every respect. http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/5112.htm

For me heritage counts certainly , not the same as your maybe . For me heritage means my History , the History of my People . This heritage , historical , not religious , gave me this attachment to this land , and the reason to make Alyah some years ago .

Rav Amar said : A jew is a Jew , converted by orthodox or reform , it's the same . He , or she , has to obey the rules . Thus you may not differiantate between a convert and a Jewish born person , both are Jewish .

No, just Rav Elyashiv's crowd have banned Rav Druckman, shlit"a. Rav Druckman is a rosh yeshiva and the head of Yeshivot Bnei Akiva. In Religious Zionist circles he is considered a very important posek and certainly one of the "gedolei yisrael". We (Religious Zionists) do not belittle Torah scholars from other worlds. Not even when we disagree with them (and we do disagree with Rav Elyashiv on many things including the halakhot of conversion). It is high time Rav Elyashiv and his students started treating other Torah viewpoints with respect.

Because of my well documented public stand (predating my and my wife's Orthodox conversions) that Ribi Yehoshua was an honorable Pharisee Ribi who taught Torah, *not* any Christian doctrines, and is, therefore, a legitimate and unparalleled candidate for Mashiakh, I may hold some sort of record for experience as a Jew whose conversion has been challenged the most times. And yes, after the trauma of discovering the error of our beliefs in the Christian Yesh"u (J*esus) and "eternal salvation," after we turned our backs on the entire Christian world to face what "everyone" had always said is "eternal damnation," to join "the lost, blind Jews rejected by G*od," after being screamed at and vilified by Christians, after we left family, security, friends and everything in the world behind to serve ha-Sheim according to His Torah, wondering if we would have to live on the streets in Israel and be stoned by the Ultra-Orthodox for our stand, no words can describe what it's like for some racist to threaten to take away all that we sacrificed everything for, all that we - *and now our Israeli-born-Jewess daughter* - have, are and will be, and what *ha-Sheim* has granted us in His Torah. The first few times, such threats were an unspeakable trauma. Eventually, after a number of challenges had been dismissed however, our reaction became "Oy, another irresponsible, racist slanderer making threats." Yet, I still catch myself looking at the back of my seat in Beit K'nesset to check that my name plate is still there. How are such threats racist? Halakhah forbids any mention that even insinuates a Jew has converted. Even a third grader could understand that referring to a Jew as a convert or geir (resident-alien candidate studying Torah for conversion) reminds the Jew that he or she is a convert - and is, therefore, prohibited by Torah. Yet, this contradiction doesn't exist in Torah. Biblically (i.e. according to Torah), there is conversion; but (the above prohibition implies) there can be no resulting "convert Jew" or "geir Jew." This necessarily implies that, upon conversion, the candidate becomes a Jew -- *not* a convert, and *no longer* a geir. Thus, there is no "convert" or "geir" whose conversion can even be mentioned, much less questioned. Torah instructs that there is only one Torah, for Jew and geir alike: the *berit* of Torah. Those who try their utmost to keep Torah according to Halakhah, including those who lapse but humble themselves before ha-Sheim and make teshuvah when apprised of their transgressions (the "sliding scale" suggested by another tb), are counted with Benei Yisraeil. However, those who reject and deny this berit, Torah, are not -- whatever they may be called or claim to be. The advantage of being born in the berit is that the child is raised in the Truth instead of like me -- brought up to believe in displacement theology, which took up a large part of my life just researching the contradictions to realize my religion was wrong. But the born-Jew who disvalues their advantage, rejecting Torah, is Eisau, whom Torah also calls Edom: a gentile. Torah doesn't inject racism, apostates do. The rest is sectarian or racist-driven slander prohibited by Torah. Today's "Gedolim" are often in the eyes of their sectarian, often fanatic, "qetanim" beholders; arguing like children in a schoolyard, "My gedolim are bigger than your gedolim." PS: an Israeli Jewish newspaper not publishing candlelighting times on Yom Shishi is a disgrace to Israel and Jewish readers. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il