...over to the Palestinians. We Israelis won't have to deal with these lunatics anymore who destroy our country and army, they can stay on their precious hilltops, and Palestinian fanatics will still have a nice group of people to fight with. Everybody wins!

The suggestion that the IDF is abusing the nation byway of "being political" is beyond perposterous and edging up very closely to ridiculous. Radicalized religious people are just that. To denounce any other entity for politicizing the settlement issue is almost laughable when one considers that the entire format of creating settlement outposts is based upon political agendas of the religious. Now even though I feel the land belons wholey to Israel, I also feel that to deny the reality of process(es) is ignorant and political in itself--and it just will not work. In fact, it perpetuates the situation. This is because the IDF, MUST respond to the situation at some minimal level; and it does. Anybody who does not believe that the IDF has the capability to permanently cleanse the WB of outposts needs to grasp the Cast Lead campaign or look at the systematic controls placed upon Arab communities in the WB. The reality is also that there exists a political element to the situation, which cannot be ignored. If it is ignored, the higher eshelons get involved, negative diplomatic exchanges occur and it costs the State. May I remind you that developments between the US, Israel and the PA are inflamed presently as the issue of expanding settlements is widely viewed as the tipping point in diplomatic relationships? This is not a thread of thought but a chain that binds even the most obscure mountaintop plywood shack to the gilted rooms of power in the EU, the White House and the farest reaches of the world's powers. So the IDF makes motions to avoid waking giants. Ultimately it really boils down to whether or not a recruit has the right to politicize him/herself. The answer is no. The IDF must maintain a standardized approach to operations and political involvement. Recruits on every level represent the IDF, period. They no longer represent their communities or their own belief systems. They leave that at the doorway when they take the oaths. There can be no other way. It is not a matter of any concern that the religious leaders evaluate the actions of the military or it's leaders. It is, indeed, inmaterial. The IDF must continue to gravely punish recruits who perform actions akin to the one referred to here. If they are rewarded by SOS or any other faction for their misconduct, then that also is inmaterial, and of no concern to anybody. They are not heroes, not achievers and not leaders. They are insubordinates, and their relgious community leaders are misguided in this effort to recognize their insubordination. That is their right and the IDF will carry on protecting it. No thanks is needed. This is the difference between the two camps of thought.

Of course. One of them is his son-in-law, what do you expect?

Encouraging or inciting somebody to commit crimes, or publicly supporting a crime is also a crime.

While it's clear that it's the far leftists who are responsible for many crimes against Israeli citizens.

Soldiers should always follow orders right. If the state decides to build camps to house all settlers, build showers. well i am going to far but you people are taking loyalty to IDF to far. But what do i know I am just a dumb xitan.

The IDF is REQUIRED to avoid Shabbat desecration except in cases of national security. Soldiers are REQUIRED (not only permitted) to refuse immoral orders. The mission of the IDF is to protect the State of Israel and its citizens and visitors. To use the IDF to further political aims is to politicize it. The new soldiers aren't the ones politicizing the IDF.

Protection of the Jewish people not political state of corrupted affairs and for the protection of every Jew in the world. Israel is a state and not a country look at the Israeli passport and personal ID and tell me what is written "State" or "Country"? There is every Jews trouble right there, Israel is a state. According to IDF ruling a soldier is permitted to refuse an order when not at war and if it may endanger them. Were Jews torn out of their homes by the Israeli government during war time, if not then no crime by the soldiers was committed.

Ground control to major Tom...the commonly used interchangable terms "nation", "state" and "country" are just that--interchangable. Potato, potato, tomato, tomato, let's call your whole semantics theory what it is:OFF. Base, that is, swimming pools, movie stars. Get a clue will ya? The issue is whether or not the holding up of signs during the ceremony at the Kotel was against regulations and it was--hence the jailing of the religious jailbirds seeking fame and fortune. Now, the issue which is separate of whether or not the recruits should participate in dismantling outposts, the discussion would have to include some exchanges about why these young people chose to enlist in a manner that required them to make the choice, instead of going through the channels that would have allowed them to make another cjoice. THEY politicized their course, and made it an issue--and the IDF has enforced their regs. No one has the right to complain about their "successful" campaign to draw attention to themselves, and now they can think of that during their incarceration. While I support Israel's claim to the territories, I carry a broader view as to how the IDF must be an active participant on the overall scene related to diplomatic realities. The regulations of the IDF are not all about giving soldiers summer camp experiences where yuppie parents are trying to make certain their beloved little babies don't get their feelings hurt. It is a military, first and last. If they are so appalled by that they should have made other choices, period.

Let us be serious for once Who is committed to defend the land and the people ? SRUGOT These same srugot should expell parents ,friends from their own home whereas leftists dodge the draft and demonstrate AGAINST the state? Israel and Tsahal are turning RELIGIOUS ! you do not like it ? TA -San Francisco one way tickets are very cheap in winter ....

A very good & logical post.

The problem with the left is that they don't totally understand the concept of democracy. Democracy means that both left and right have the right to think as they please. The soldiers are being punished by the IDF for acts that apparently broke the rules. However, they are being rewarded by those who honor these actions. THAT is democracy. I am waiting for YNET to write negatively of the families of terrorists rewarded for their murderous acts, I am waiting for the condemnation of those who receive "peace" awards for calling for the removal of Jews from Jewish homes in Jewish lands. News Flash lefties--just because you disagree with the message, doesn't mean the messsage should not be heard!

Your post is insulting to IDF and I don;t want to accept your "clue"..how does the whole subject connect to swimming pools& movie stars ?Why would the patriots of the Jewish state seek fame and fortune?Never heard anything more redicilous...Shame on you! Unlike any other country in the world, the young soldgers keep very close contact with their families during their service, which makes them better and more motivated to defend their people and land. Raising they weapons against a fellow Israeli and Jew for defending their homes, is not being done anywhere around the Free world...You have no right to judge and opine on the above subject with such misguided cruelty....And politics has nothing and at the same time everything to do with it...I hope, that the young generation of Israelis will finally understand the need to change their laws to first protect their homes and their nation before the enemy will take advantage of a complying and self destructive defence law, that could cause the end of Israel....

Who is Jesus there? Looks like Ben Ari is on his place... Baruch Mamzer is on Juda's place... Damn... :)

fortune with the poor. These are REAL Jews, REAL soldiers, not traitors who steal Jewish homes from Jews.

I would trouble myself to explain it to someone I thought had half a chance of grasping. Sorry. But to respond to your remark about insulting the IDF (which I seriously, seriously doubt anybody else besides you thought I was doing), I have been a very serious supporter of the IDF for quite a long time. Dear, there is such a thing as not being smart enough to post on talkbacks. Try rereading the post, and possibly even mouth the words.

If we simply stop tearing down settlements and stop kicking Jews out of their homes, this problem will be solved. We must not give up Judea and Samaria. Remember what happened in Gaza. Now we have the rockets as a result.

One side is for the Jewish nation becoming an advanced nation- a light unto the nations. The other side is to melt into the world and be like eeryone else in eery way; lose our purpose. So dismantling Jewish villages is shameful, and these brave young men are heroic.

soldier? These folks didn't kill those whom they disagreed with. Some may say their views are a tad bit extreme.But so were hasans. I congratulate these two and pray Hashems blessings on them for standing up for what is right.

# 9 is factual and correct in her info. # 10 was emotional, frustrated and lost it early on, (common drug abuse symptoms), note his referral to Space odyssey by David Bowy. # 10 does not know proper English source meaning. # 10 www.google.ca will educate you, nation is a people. State is an area occupied by a nation or part of a nation, Country refers to defined borders where a state has undefined borders. #10 An army is a military force and enlisting to an army means military actions, i am sure the boys knew that when enlisting. Any army in no manner should carry out political agendas those are not military actions. # 12 if #10 impressed you then you would purchase a Nasrallah bearer bond lol. # 14 you are right on the money great reporting fine backing for real combat soldiers, at least they serve combat and are not in jail for refusing to do their army service. # 10 you are null and void.

And when a group of leftist recruits holds up a sign saying "We will not protect settlements!! will the Clown Princes award them a prize also. This is a disgusting precedent that for a few minutes allowed a few egos to be polished, but in the long term does incredible damage to the sense of unity essential to our nation under siege,

out of Samaria and Judea but if portions of the IDF are allowed to rebel then that would spell the end of our military cohesiveness and, finally, the end of Israel as a national state as Israel is defined by its military. Rewarding soldiers or would-be soldiers who either threaten to rebel or actually commit rebellion is an act of sabotage and the state should therefore severely punish those who incite the young. members of the IDF.

It is irrelevant if you are right or left or religious or secular..all these augments are stupid.. the Army is wrong to get involved in evacuations it is a job for the police.As you say there are two camps of thought. They have no right to take our 18 yr old kids and force them to do something against their moral, upbringing and religion (it has nothing to do with politics) "even if it is against your camp of thought.. you can't impose or force your thought on the other camp" . The army only has that right if army service was a choice but since it is not a choice and all kids have to go ,they have to take into consideration that they are dealing with boys/girls from many different backgrounds and if some extreme right solders feel it is morally wrong(not political) to evacuate a Jew then they should not have to do so.. there are many other jobs in the army that they can do..why don't they just send in the solders that don't find it morally wrong to do it...maybe the problem is that if it was voluntary then most of the solders would not volunteer and if that is the case then it should not be the army's place to do it. The army stands for the protection of Israeli citizens.. all citizens not just the left or secular and it also does not mater where a citizen lives, not long ago Tel Aviv was a settlement the whole country has only been settled for 61 yrs. We state that we are a democratic country.I have a son in the army and after getting to know some of his friends believe me when i say that right or left, religious or not.. it is an unfair thing to ask of these kids and something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. And then we wonder why there is so much violence in the country and in the army.. remember that these kids are the next generation of adults and parents, what difference should it make to us that an extreme rightist organization supports people who stand for what they believe in and encourages them to continue standing up for there believes ..maybe the government and army feel a bit threatened because they know that what they are doing is wrong and the argument ,that people need to follow orders no mater what the order is sounds a bit like the second world war and one off the main excuses the German solders used to explain why they did what they did. #2 next time the army wants to evacuate people from there homes I hope you volunteer they need people like you to do the dirty job(it is a dirty job politically right or wrong) and by saying what you just did it looks like you justify the German solders in the second world war. you wish it was so simple , maybe you were one off the solders who was sent to evacuate Jews and maybe this way of thought is the only way you can live with your self

Some how i think you are the last person to be talking of traitors, you are a traitor you forsake Jerusalem to live the material life in LA. i serve in the IDF to defend my coutry not you. The IDF is not another political tool for the lunatic fringe to promote civil war and disobedience with in the ranks of the IDF. As a soldier we are required to follow orders even if we do not agree with them. Thats the life of a soldier bunnie dearest but living in LA sipping cocktails by your pool can hardly be described as supporting Israel while your fellow jews are fighting for their country . Shame on you !

This is subverting military discipline. If it is not illegal legislation should be passed making it so. An army can not run on mixed messages. Anyone who suborns indiscipline endangers the state and should be severely punished. In war you shoot people who do this. Is there peace?. If this is permitted to stand then the world knows that this is government policy whatever the window dressing of putting the two in prison for a brief period. Is the IDF's effectiveness for sale? For a mere 20,000? shekels?